The old Log or not to log C&R's argument!

[Mosko]

I'm sure most of you have seen, heard, or discussed, the very old argument concerning whether you log all C&R weapons acquired after the receipt of the C&R license or not.

In the form of a refresher, "Opinion A" states that a person "IS LICENSED", and does not "use" the license, so he/she must log all C&R weapons, no matter how they are acquired, even if your daddy handed it down to you.

"Opinion B" states that the licensee "HOLDS" a license for use, and needs only to log C&R weapons, where the license was uesd to acquire the weapon. Personal acquisitions, private sales, given by dad, found on the side of the road, need not be logged in the acquisition bound book.

Opinions of licensees, generally run about half and half on this question, and there are always plenty of ammo supporting both sides, including official letters from the ATF stating both opinions. (hence the reason I believe for the confusion).

With all that being said, and having recently received the renewal form for my own 03FFL, I notice question 7, a, and b.

7. "If you are a firearms dealer, pawnbroker, manufacturer, importer, or collector of curios and relics:"

a. "How many firearms have you bought or acquired with your firearms license over the last 3 years? If none enter 0"

b."How many firearms have you sold or disposed of with your firearms license over the last 3 years? If none enter 0"

From the sound of the ATF's own wording, they now seem to indicate that any acquisitions or dispositions outside the use of the issued license is not reportable, or logable!

How do you read that?

[xpertgreg]

I've always been the type to log it when I use the licence and not to log it if it is not used to purchase the weapon. It looks like that just backs me up! I read it the same way you do.

gw

[WmRoy]

I would have to agree with you based on that language...... but I've always logged everything.........

:o

[Mosko]

I've been interested in that argument for several years for some reason. I have always wondered why the ATF does not clarify that once and for all.

I have never been able to identify but a couple of possible reasons why the won't or don't. one is that if they were to write the text "log all C&R's no how you acquired them" into the law, they would be stepping on the toes of state laws where private, face to face sales, are legal, and it would admit also that, that the form 4473 has less "authority" than the collectors bound book.

Most collectors have lost sight of the fact, or never had it, that the original purpose of the 03FFL is "only" to allow interstate shipping of C&R's, to collectors, to better enable their collection activities.

There's no conspiracy there, all the government wants is a paper trail, to and from firearms so that they can be tracked in the event they show up in, or at a crime scene.

Legal face to face sales in some states, circumvents that desire, and the gov would make states change that if they could. The 03FFL and the 4473, both accomplish that, so the gov is simply saying, if it's shipped to you, since you can't fill a 4473 face to face, you must use the license for the delivery address.

I personally believe that face to face use of the 03 license in lieu of the 4473 violates the spirit of the law that enables the 03FFL.

[CoorsLightGuy]

Well.......I think the whole thing is a crock. What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." do these people not understand?

[Mosko]

Well CLG, therein lies the root of the problem. There are people in "high" places that think the gun will cause a problem, not the ass holding it! The same is true about a lot of things. Another example is the folks who oppose issuing condoms to high school kids.

Those people think if a school kid is given a condom, within a very few minutes the guift will "cause sex"! Wouldn't that be a hoot?

[CoorsLightGuy]

Those people think if a school kid is given a condom, within a very few minutes the guift will "cause sex"! Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Uhhh.............ya mean it doesn't?
:confused:

[fordruid]

Those people think if a school kid is given a condom, within a very few minutes the guift will "cause sex"! Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Heck, I'm 48 and if a good looking girl gives me a condom it still leads to sex within minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CoorsLightGuy]

Heck, I'm 48 and if a good looking girl gives me a condom it still leads to sex within minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can we get a breakdown on the EXACT number of minutes it takes for a 48yr old? I'm 48, soon to be 49 and I want to know if I'm still "competitive".
:D

[fordruid]

Can we get a breakdown on the EXACT number of minutes it takes for a 48yr old? I'm 48, soon to be 49 and I want to know if I'm still "competitive".
:D

Uh, right then I'm too busy to look at my watch.

[royke]

If I sell a gun or guns face to face to 01 FFL dealer, is that "using my license", for in state sale if guns were acquired on my license interstate?

[xpertgreg]

If you logged it in using your license, you must in turn log it out to whom ever you sell it or give it to.

BTW welcome to the forum!!!
gw

[Mosko]

Personally, I think XPG is right on the money. Once you acquire the C&R "using" your license, it must be logged into your bound book. Thereafter when you dispose of the same weapon, it will have to be logged out of the book since it will no longer be in your posession.

[WmRoy]

Welcome aboard royke! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Cork]

The Feds want us to only log in Bound Book when the CnR licensed is used to acquire.
How would I log the acquisition of an in state face to face cash deal, about 60, thin, wore a john Deere baseball cap, lived in Jefferson Davis County?
Also if you log everything do you audit your inventory every year and add those that turned 50 years old?
For other reason I have a set of records which could be called a bound book on all my weapons.
Cork

[Mosko]

Agreed Cork, I actually have two (2) bound books, one goes back as far as I can remember. The 1st entry in book one, is an old Mauser I bought face to face when I was 14 years old. This is my "insurance purposes" book, and naturally if weapons were stolen I would have "numbers" for the Police report.

Book two, is the official "bound book" of weapons that I acquired with the C&R llicense. When I received my license years ago, I was confused about the wording and requirements, so I decided to keep the two books, wanting to be sure I both, complied with the law, and had all the personal records that I might need.

I use a spreadsheet, and print hard copies, thereafter being kept in a hard binder.

[TRICKSTER]

According to ATF you are required to log all C&R weapons that you have acquired while licensed. There is no using your license, you are licensed.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2001/01/011801-openletter-ffl-collectors-curio-relics.html

Required

Must prepare an acquisition and disposition (A/D) record as prescribed by 27 CFR 178.125(f). The A/D record shall be kept with the collection.

Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collector’s license.

Must provide a written notification as specified in ATF I 5300.2, Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice, when delivery of a handgun is made to a nonlicensee.

Must prepare ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, whenever the collector sells or otherwise disposes of--at one time or during any five consecutive business days--two or more pistols or revolvers or any combination thereof, to an unlicensed person.

Must report the theft or loss of a firearm within 48 hours of discovery, by telephoning 1-800-800-3855. Also, ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Theft/Loss Report, will be prepared in accordance with the instructions on the form.